Omaha/8 Hands

[MrHiRollller]

I am starting this for people that are interested in analyzing Omaha/8 hands.



$3 Rebuy. This hand below I am sitting 2 of 17 in the tourney. The other player is in 1st. Cash is 15th place.

Full Tilt Poker Game #10200822761: $3 + $0.30 Rebuy (77179908), Table 2 - 1200/2400 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 5:07:09 ET - 2009/01/23
Seat 1: Beast1985 (39,704)
Seat 2: pbnews (56,350)
Seat 3: Mr Hi Rollller (65,466)
Seat 4: Dapper Andy (34,556)
Seat 5: trelli37 (66,854)
Seat 6: 11_ALL-IN_1 (7,865)
Seat 7: Nushtabulous (40,036)
Seat 8: nelioness (26,635)
11_ALL-IN_1 posts the small blind of 1,200
Nushtabulous posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mr Hi Rollller [2s Ah Qs As]
nelioness folds
Beast1985 folds
pbnews folds
Mr Hi Rollller raises to 8,400
Dapper Andy folds
trelli37 has 15 seconds left to act
trelli37 raises to 28,800
11_ALL-IN_1 folds
Nushtabulous folds
Mr Hi Rollller raises to 65,466, and is all in
trelli37 calls 36,666
Mr Hi Rollller shows [2s Ah Qs As]
trelli37 shows [9d Ad Ac 3d]
*** FLOP *** [Td 7c 2d]
*** TURN *** [Td 7c 2d] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [Td 7c 2d 5d] [4h]
Mr Hi Rollller shows a pair of Aces, for high and 7,5,4,2,A, for low
trelli37 shows a flush, Ace high, for high and 5,4,3,2,A, for low
trelli37 wins the high pot (67,266) with a flush, Ace high
trelli37 wins the low pot (67,266) with 5,4,3,2,A
Mr Hi Rollller stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 134,532 | Rake 0
Board: [Td 7c 2d 5d 4h]
Seat 1: Beast1985 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: pbnews didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Mr Hi Rollller showed [2s Ah Qs As] and lost with HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 7,5,4,2,A
Seat 4: Dapper Andy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: trelli37 (button) showed [9d Ad Ac 3d] and won (134,532) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 5,4,3,2,A
Seat 6: 11_ALL-IN_1 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Nushtabulous (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: nelioness didn't bet (folded)



I could of played this hand a couple of ways and I chose to go for it all pre flop. Even if I call preflop and raise on the turn, he still calls and I lose.

[all4pearljam]

Tough luck Steve, but yea, at this level you aint getting anyone to lay down aces preflop, so it was pretty much a matter of time before all of the money got in there. Most players think aces in PLO & 8ob are the same as in HE, as I am sure you know all too well...

[mrkromer]

Way overplayed in my opinion.

mike

[spaceboy761]

Tough hand there. With no real shot at the low, it's hard to push all-in when it's likely that your best case scenario is a chop.

[speedracer75]

I am starting this for people that are interested in analyzing Omaha/8 hands.



$3 Rebuy. This hand below I am sitting 2 of 17 in the tourney. The other player is in 1st. Cash is 15th place.

Full Tilt Poker Game #10200822761: $3 + $0.30 Rebuy (77179908), Table 2 - 1200/2400 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 5:07:09 ET - 2009/01/23
Seat 1: Beast1985 (39,704)
Seat 2: pbnews (56,350)
Seat 3: Mr Hi Rollller (65,466)
Seat 4: Dapper Andy (34,556)
Seat 5: trelli37 (66,854)
Seat 6: 11_ALL-IN_1 (7,865)
Seat 7: Nushtabulous (40,036)
Seat 8: nelioness (26,635)

So you're 2 off from cashing, and it looks like you could've just folded your way into the money, so that begs the question... what is ultimately your goal in entering tournaments? Making the $, or going for top 3 $? Unless we're talking a significant buy-in (for myself I'd consider $500 or more significant of a buy-in), my goal is always to get to the big $, which is typically top 3, give or take. So my take on it is if you have the hand, don't be afraid to butt heads with the chip leader in this situation.

11_ALL-IN_1 posts the small blind of 1,200
Nushtabulous posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mr Hi Rollller [2s Ah Qs As]
nelioness folds
Beast1985 folds
pbnews folds
Mr Hi Rollller raises to 8,400

As per my reasoning above, this is absolutely the correct play (and a no-brainer) in my opinion. Either take down the blinds without resistance, or make people pay to see the flop.

Dapper Andy folds
trelli37 has 15 seconds left to act
trelli37 raises to 28,800

So chip leader wants to play... it would seem like forever waiting for the action to get back so you can re-pop it. preflop, he can't beat you for high, and you also have the best low draw.

11_ALL-IN_1 folds
Nushtabulous folds
Mr Hi Rollller raises to 65,466, and is all in
trelli37 calls 36,666
Mr Hi Rollller shows [2s Ah Qs As]
trelli37 shows [9d Ad Ac 3d]

at this point, your long-term expected return would be 56% of the pot versus his 44% according to an odds calculator... the difference mainly due to you winning the low half of the pot more than twice as often as he will.

*** FLOP *** [Td 7c 2d]
*** TURN *** [Td 7c 2d] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [Td 7c 2d 5d] [4h]
Mr Hi Rollller shows a pair of Aces, for high and 7,5,4,2,A, for low
trelli37 shows a flush, Ace high, for high and 5,4,3,2,A, for low
trelli37 wins the high pot (67,266) with a flush, Ace high
trelli37 wins the low pot (67,266) with 5,4,3,2,A
Mr Hi Rollller stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 134,532 | Rake 0
Board: [Td 7c 2d 5d 4h]
Seat 1: Beast1985 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: pbnews didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Mr Hi Rollller showed [2s Ah Qs As] and lost with HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 7,5,4,2,A
Seat 4: Dapper Andy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: trelli37 (button) showed [9d Ad Ac 3d] and won (134,532) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 5,4,3,2,A
Seat 6: 11_ALL-IN_1 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Nushtabulous (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: nelioness didn't bet (folded)



I could of played this hand a couple of ways and I chose to go for it all pre flop. Even if I call preflop and raise on the turn, he still calls and I lose.

I have no problems with how you played, provided you play for the win and not just to make the $. What I don't understand is your line of thinking with just calling preflop and then raising on the turn? If you just call preflop (and then just call his preflop raise), it's far easier to muck after that flop comes out. Your low got killed and you have no draw for high (other than aces), and you still would have over $50K in your stack. It's ESPECIALLY easier to fold on the turn, when the flush is out there, the low is out there, and you STILL only have aces for high and no low. But like I said, no problems with how you played it. Got all-in as a favorite, cards just didn't fall your way. If he would've had any very good (yet inferior) hand such as AKK3 or A23K, you would've had a long-term expected return far closer to 66%... it just wasn't meant to be.

[speedracer75]

Tough hand there. With no real shot at the low, it's hard to push all-in when it's likely that your best case scenario is a chop.

But he got all-in preflop... I would agree with dumping his hand if he saw the flop first... but preflop, I'll push all in with his hand everytime.

[spaceboy761]

But he got all-in preflop... I would agree with dumping his hand if he saw the flop first... but preflop, I'll push all in with his hand everytime.

Yeah, I misread the hand history.

I guess AA23 is the perfect starting hand in Omaha H/L, so AA2x is always an all-in consideration. I think the only question come from the fact that the play was made near the bubble and against the one and only person who could take you out. Maybe just calling off the 28800 pre-flop and trying to make the read from there would be the best play. You're throwing away some value, but some stack management would be nice too! I've laid down AA in hold 'em tournaments in spots like this.

[Ezzz]

Well roller actually had AA2q. Along with sooted A2. That made the hand even stronger. AA2q is better than aa23 I believe. Am I right in that coach?? The broadway card makes it the perfect hand. You have your low A2 possibility. Then your nut high strt options with the possible flush draw on the spades. PLO8 is all about the draws!! So I was once taught!! Roller moved in with the best hand. The guy got lucky with his flush. Then roller got the fck on his low with the 2 card. He made the right play and was nothing he could do IMO!

[speedracer75]

Yeah, I misread the hand history.

I guess AA23 is the perfect starting hand in Omaha H/L, so AA2x is always an all-in consideration. I think the only question come from the fact that the play was made near the bubble and against the one and only person who could take you out. Maybe just calling off the 28800 pre-flop and trying to make the read from there would be the best play. You're throwing away some value, but some stack management would be nice too! I've laid down AA in hold 'em tournaments in spots like this.

Like I said, it just depends on what he's striving to accomplish when he enters a MTT... making the $, or going for a top 3 finish. If his only goal was to make the $, I'd play it differently... I'd still raise preflop, but would've folded when facing the re-raise from the guy that can take you out, and would've moved on to the next hand with like $55K chips, give or take.

I don't even think you can just call he re-raise and then attempt a read after the flop. Regardless if the flop, unless he's timid he's going to push all in on the flop if you don't first... so therefore, the flop really tells you nothing about him, all it will allow you to do is make folding easier if it's an airball board like 89T suited... even though you don't know if that missed him completely as well (is he the type to re-raise with A234?)

I still like how he played the hand... pushing all in preflop with the best hand and try to build a HUGE stack advantage over the other players... lets you be the bully at the table and steal lots of smaller pots, while giving up an occasional pot to someone that pushes back when you don't have the goods... all in the name of setting up the right time to take someone's whole stack when they get tired of your bullying and push back at a time when you DO have the goods.

[speedracer75]

Well roller actually had AA2q. Along with sooted A2. That made the hand even stronger. AA2q is better than aa23 I believe. Am I right in that coach?? The broadway card makes it the perfect hand. You have your low A2 possibility. Then your nut high strt options with the possible flush draw on the spades. PLO8 is all about the draws!! So I was once taught!! Roller moved in with the best hand. The guy got lucky with his flush. Then roller got the fck on his low with the 2 card. He made the right play and was nothing he could do IMO!

AA23 is stronger than AA2Q, because you can make more hands with it. AA, A2, A3, and 23 are all playable for lows and straights (and high with AA). With AA2Q... while it does give you the broadway straight draw, you also end up with a 2-card combination of Q2 (along with AA, A2, and AQ). Obviously the Q2 only matters if both a Q and 2 hit the board, and it gives you no straight possibilities like the 23 does. The 3 (instead of Q) also adds extra insurance against getting your low counterfeited... A2's get cracked a decent amount of the time... A23 is a lot harder to counterfeit.

The only time when I would rather have AA2Q over AA23 is after the flop is already out, and you know what the board is. If I'm holding AA23 and the flop comes something like KT4, I'll probably fold if anyone makes a significant bet. On the other hand, if I'm holding AA2Q on that flop, then you can justify peeling off a turn card more often than not, as you have a draw to the nut high hand on the turn as well as the runner runner emergency low.

Anyway, that was just a general example... but over the long run, AA23 will give you a better expected return than AA2Q will...