THE HAND In Question lol

[NoAngel2u]

Everleaf Gaming Game #209941591
***** Hand history for game #209941591 *****
Blinds 300/600 NL Hold'em - 2010/10/22 - 03:48:49
Table 1
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players: 8
Seat 1: all4pearljam ( 20483 Chips )
Seat 3: Niccivan ( 6975 Chips )
Seat 4: Wade_Radio ( 5998 Chips )
Seat 5: WinJStar ( 3645 Chips )
Seat 6: NoAngel ( 2188 Chips )
Seat 7: nearlyprefek ( 6450 Chips )
Seat 9: CJDavis ( 4506 Chips )
Seat 10: shebully ( 4755 Chips )
all4pearljam: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
Niccivan: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
Wade_Radio: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
WinJStar: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
NoAngel: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
nearlyprefek: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
CJDavis: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
shebully: posts ante [ 75 Chips]
NoAngel: posts small blind [ 300 Chips]
nearlyprefek: posts big blind [ 600 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NoAngel [ 8c, 6c ]
CJDavis: fuzzi does?
Girlygirlxx: i had a big woody once
CJDavis folds
Girlygirlxx:
shebully: bonnnner
shebully folds
all4pearljam folds
Niccivan folds
Wade_Radio folds
fuzzidrawers: lol .you love my slippers
WinJStar raises [ 3,570 Chips]
NoAngel calls [ 1,813 Chips]
nearlyprefek folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, 5s, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
WinJStar shows [ Ad, Qs ] three of a kind, fives
NoAngel shows [ 8c, 6c ] a full house, fives full of eights
NoAngel wins 5426 chips from main pot with a full house, fives full of eights [ 8c, 8h, 5h, 5s, 5d ]


The chat that followed: (Which I actually didn't catch until I looked back at hand history)

WinJStar: sick
CJDavis: sick
shebully: freak
NoAngel: dang that was some lucky stuff
FlowTingFish: OUCH!!!!
all4pearljam: AQ and Qs jen
all4pearljam: ugh
Girlygirlxx: Jeremy are you tormenting the ladies?
CJDavis: take away 2 ***** for that
fuzzidrawers: lol You the bomb GG
all4pearljam: lol, tryin to
WinJStar: cant understand the call
Girlygirlxx:
shebully: give Klohe a pat for me Nicc
all4pearljam: me either
Girlygirlxx: thanks
NoAngel: lmao i was bad
WinJStar: ya think?

Sure hope i wasn't the fish you referred to later on. lmao

Do I go fishin when I'm down to less than 4 BB? Of course! lol I needed chips to stay alive and was gettin eatin up with antes and blinds. Hell I closed my eyes when I called and thought to myself, well if I don't get big lucky, at least Jen gets my chips.

I felt like shit about it yesterday and today, then went and whooped your ass tonight and felt like even bigger shit. lmao

So anyway, took a look at the hand history to recall my reasoning for that call, and feel just fine about it now.

I sure do admire you a great deal Jen, but I'm not going to promise I won't do what I need to do when I'm at the table, and I expect the same from you. The truth is I'm certain most everyone here is a much stronger player than I am. I've been playing for less than 2 years. Haven't played much for the past few months, so we can probably chalk it up to reborn virgin luck or something. lol

Love is the law of my life, but my life is not poker, so love don't apply. lmao I broke my strict rule of no apologies for my play, but I don't make any moves to be malicious, so I don't owe any, so I'm gonna stop groveling.

My feelings at the table have always been, make no apologies and take no prisoners, and I expect no apologies ever, and I expect every one to take my chips, unless my luck and (questionable) skill gets theirs first. lmao

Do I bluff? Do I steal blinds? Do I call out of short stack desperation in hopes of getting lucky and a chance to live a few more hands, or maybe even pull out that sweetest of wins?

Do any of you?

So, please do offer me any advice on this hand, or any of my plays. I'll gladly consider them.

[WinJStar]

I thought it was a tremendous amount of chips for you to risk going out on and you got lucky hitting. You were only in 300 chips at a full table with a couple rounds left in you and it costs you your entire stack to call. If it were me I would have picked a different hand to make my move with. Now, on the same note, if you had a monster stack and me covered then not only would I understand the call, I'd make it. We all play poker differently, I'm not judging you. You were the one who said "lmao I was bad", so you knew or thought it was a bad call. I just agreed with you when I said, "ya think?" I hold no ill will or even placed a player note or anything about it. It was never mentioned again after that hand in the game. Its poker we all get lucky from time to time. I was on the button with a a big hand and pushed. I thought it was a gutsy call. I could have easily had Aces instead of just an over card race. If you had two paints I would have even understood it. It is simply an example of any 2 cards...

Also, regarding me referencing a fish later on - My friend "fishy" was watching and railing the whole game even long after I left. You can see him talking in the very chat you posted. We spoke a lot during the game.

FlowTingFish: OUCH!!!!

... then went and whooped your ass tonight and felt like even bigger shit. lmao

I don't recall it being an ass whooping, but you played great. I even went to your profile and posted in the thread it was a good game. Obviously if I felt it wasn't I wouldn't say that. I was the one who pm'd you begging you to play because we were short. If I didn't think you were a good player or didn't have respect for you I wouldn't have asked. Obviously you didn't feel like shit or you wouldn't put "lmao" after your comment.

I am happy to say it again.

So, please do offer me any advice on this hand, or any of my plays. I'll gladly consider them.

Personally, I don't think there was anything wrong with what was said in the chat you pasted. I could name a zillion other examples which are downright offensive. The advice I have is to try not play your game and do what works for you. Outside the LP games, it gets a lot nastier. We do try and maintain a level of respect at our games, although sometimes we stray in the heat of the moment. You can't "feel like shit all day" based on a bitter person's complaint that you got their chips. You should be smiling all the way to the money. (except for in this example where I think you got an "ass whooping" and bubbled)

[NoAngel2u]

Also, regarding me referencing a fish later on - My friend "fishy" was watching and railing the whole game even long after I left. You can see him talking in the very chat you posted. We spoke a lot during the game.

I suspected you weren't, but wasn't sure if it was in reference to me. Between chat at all the tables and the radio feed, I missed alot.

I thought it was a tremendous amount of chips for you to risk going out on and you got lucky hitting. You were only in 300 chips at a full table with a couple rounds left in you and it costs you your entire stack to call.

If I'd played out my chips, waiting for a better hand I would have been toast in 1 round and a couple of hands. Don't know how many times I have played that game and died a slow death because I waiting. I was small blind and already had already 300 chips committed and decided to call and hope for the luck of the short stack.

Obviously you didn't feel like shit or you wouldn't put "lmao" after your comment.

I'm not really sure how you can conclude because I expressed LMAO, that I didn't feel bad. I think posting this topic makes it obvious, because I felt like I needed to explain myself.

I don't recall it being an ass whooping, but you played great.

I was born in Texas City, Texas, so I've always joked that I'm bout as Texan as you get. lol When I win, I've whooped ass,,, when I lose, my ass has been whooped. lmao It's just an expression.

Personally, I don't think there was anything wrong with what was said in the chat you pasted.

I didn't think anything was wrong with the commentary either. It just made it clear to me that you didn't understand why I called, and it seemed others didn't either, so I wanted to clarify.

You were the one who said "lmao I was bad", so you knew or thought it was a bad call.

It's called self deprication Jen. lol I knew I got lucky for sure. Bad call? They were definately bad cards, but it ended up being a good call. lol I knew the risk and I decided to take it and hope for luck. I wouldn't call it a bad call for anyone with less that 4 bb's. In fact, I always consider what a desperate short stack might do in relation to the current hand I'm in.

(except for in this example where I think you got an "ass whooping" and bubbled)

Yes I did LMAO

[StevieJS]

Ok.. First up. I'm not sure why the hand history was posted, but given that it was... Angel in the sb gets an all in raise which she calls with rag suited. Now at best a call here is less than a coin flip, in fact its a true "Hail Mary".. Next hand she has the button, then a further few orbits of the board before needing to make a call such as this. What happened happened, obviously (In my opinion) this was a terrible play.. Why did you post the hand history ??? I'm really confused... Why would you post a hand where you seriously donked out on your opponent?
Luck can be cruel.. Jen bore the brunt in this instance..

[NoAngel2u]

Well, Jen made a comment during the game tonight, a comment in pm, and so after looking back at the hand history and the comments, I wanted to explain myself. Which I did. Are there rules for the reasons to post hand histories? I guess I should look for the forum rules.

[chevanater]

I'm for sure folding here. I really wanna try to get it in without a call so i wait for next hand to be open raiser. If Jen folds then an allin is worthwhile i guess.

[NoAngel2u]

Angel in the sb gets an all in raise which she calls with rag suited. Now at best a call here is less than a coin flip, in fact its a true "Hail Mary".. Next hand she has the button, then a further few orbits of the board before needing to make a call such as this.

You have it slightly mixed up. I didn't need to make that call after a few orbits. I made that call because I had only one orbit left in the game. lol And YES it was a "Hail Mary" call. I totally own that.

[WinJStar]

Well, Jen made a comment during the game tonight, a comment in pm, and so after looking back at the hand history and the comments, I wanted to explain myself. Which I did. Are there rules for the reasons to post hand histories? I guess I should look for the forum rules.

I think I may have said don't do it again with a winkie Actually I am really glad you posted this. LP is seriously lacking in poker hand discussion. You phrased it as you were looking for advice not explaining yourself.

So, please do offer me any advice on this hand, or any of my plays. I'll gladly consider them.

[NoAngel2u]

lol well that phrase followed a long blathering explanation, so I just figured my explanation was self explanatory. lol

[batgirl218]

Ok so I thought I would throw in my own two cents on this whole issue.

I've read the hands, and the comments and a lot of the comments are kinda weak to be honest. A couple are just saying she played bad without explaining the why. Some did and kudos to them but others were kinda...lame.
I have a friend who tries to get me to play tables on sites where he was making money. The thing I CAN'T STAND is when he we have a convo like this:
"Hey you should play this pot limit omaha h/l table three idiots there."
"Cool. What are they like."
"Stupid."

Ok see that's not helpful. I want data or terms or something I can use. Telling someone they suck and leaving isn't helpful. This woman would like help so let's try and give her some .
In case no one has read the way I break down hands, I don't zoom in on one player I try to give an overview of what I think about everything involved in the hand. So let's start with hand 1:
Blinds are 300/600 with a 75 Ante
The players are Jen with an M of 2.4ish and NoAngel with an M of 1.4ish
Ok first off I really think both stacks have very little value and both should have made moves when the stacks were worth a great deal more. All they working for them is position and even then the players typically in these games will call with soooo many hands from the blinds because they believe it's correct to do so. If it is or not is a whole other thread altogether. So my first real concern is that even a double up really isn't going to help either one's cause since even if they do double up they can and should expect to be called by multiple opponents.

Everyone folds to Jen's button and she shoves which should be pretty standard with just about any hand she has here. However with that being said Jen's stack is so small she really isn't putting any fear into anyone unless they have a read on her as a tight player.
NoAngel calls from the small blind with 86s. Big blind folds. So what's the real problem with this hand. Well it's certainly not calling from the small blind. WHERE she is calling from (beyond the fact that she is calling an all-in) means almost absolutely nothing.
Let's talk small blind play for a second. The blinds in general are the worst positions to play from. Duh, right? Well which is worse, the small blind or the big blind? To be honest, the difference is almost non-existant. Between the later position and the higher blinds (since they trade off, you can either pay the Small blind to be the 2nd to last to act or the Big Blind to act very last.) it's a wash. However if you REALLY crave a number here it is: .005%. That's the average EV increase to playing the small blind or the big blind. You earn a .005% increase in value from the small blind in comparision to the big blind.
Ok so our next point of attack is EV (Expected Value). Well most hands are in the toilet when you move them from the button to the blinds. Why is that? Well you are out of position on every street besides pre-flop. After the flop you have to act first and we all know how hard it is to show strength out of position. However this brings in our monkey wrench, both players are all in thus nullifying any positional advantage. Once the money is in the middle Jen isn't going to win or lose any more often just because she opened shoved from the button. The cards don't understand position. So let's look at 86s in it's basic context.
Ok so I have this nifty little took called pokerstove. www.pokerstove.com it's a FREE neat little program which shows equity against a range of hands.
So let's try 86s against all the hands in hold 'em.
After 2,097,572,400 hands the results are in!! (What Maury gets to say it all the time :/)
86s: 46.243%
Random: 53.757%
Ok so it's a weak coin flip. And her pot odds were...*looks back* a little under 2-1. However, since I have no stats on Angel, I have plenty of Jen so let's try and put her on a range of hands.
Jen's VPIP is 21% from the button in the red M zone (an M of 5 or less) so that puts her shovable hands somewhere around:
66+, A4s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s+, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+ JTo+
So let's put Jen's range against 86s and see what happens .
453,760,560 hands later...
86s: 35.689%
Jen's Range: 64.311%
So to make this a correct call NoAngel needs to get pot odds of 2-1 and she was getting...1.88-1
So according to the math...this is NEGATIVE EV play based on all in calls alone.
I can run a breakdown of the other hand too if people are really interested.
Love and life,
BG