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The Libyan war: Unconstitutional and illegitimate

This is a discussion on The Libyan war: Unconstitutional and illegitimate within the The Political and Social Snake Pit forums, part of the Current Happenings category; I wonder if this article qualifies as unbiased. It seems pretty straightforward and full of facts to me. From a ...

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    bluffmanxx's Avatar
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    The Libyan war: Unconstitutional and illegitimate

    I wonder if this article qualifies as unbiased. It seems pretty straightforward and full of facts to me. From a pretty consistently liberal site as well.

    Read at you own risk, it's long and you might learn a thing or two. I know I did even though I already voiced the same opinion in another thread.

    The Libyan war: Unconstitutional and illegitimate
    There is no doubt that U.S. participation in the Anglo-French-American attack on Libya is completely unconstitutional. As Glenn Greenwald has pointed out, before becoming president Barack Obama, a graduate of Harvard Law School and a former law professor, accurately described the limits of a president’s authority to initiate a war in cases where the U.S. has neither been attacked nor is in imminent danger of attack:

    The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.

    As Commander-in-Chief, the President does have a duty to protect and defend the United States. In instances of self-defense, the President would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent.
    The civil war in Libya is a perfect case of "a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." While the president is limited by the Constitution to repelling or forestalling attack, Congress can declare war for a variety of purposes beyond simple defense. But as a member of the United Nations, the U.S. must abide by the provisions of the U.N. Charter.

    The provisions of the Charter are ambiguous, but the soundest interpretation is that under Article 51 countries can wage wars of national or regional self-defense without the approval of the U.N. Security Council. However, under Article 42, Security Council approval is necessary for wars undertaken for other, non-defensive purposes.

    It is not clear whether there are limits on what kinds of military actions, in addition to wars of self-defense, that the Security Council can authorize, to deal with a "threat to peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression," as described in Article 39. The Security Council was designed to act as a great power concert capable of intervening to nip international crises in the bud. Whether one thinks it is prudent or not, intervention in the Libyan civil war, in order to avert, say, floods of refugees spilling over the borders or washing up on the shores of southern Europe, would seem to be the sort of thing the Security Council has the power to authorize.

    However, while the Security Council can authorize member states to undertake a war for purposes other than national or regional self-defense, it cannot order any country to do so. The U.S. agreed to participate in the United Nations only because the U.N. charter makes it clear that each member state has the right to decide, on the basis of its internal constitutional processes, whether to take part in an enforcement action authorized by the Security Council.

    In other words, there are two distinct systems of authorization, one international and one national. Under international law, the U.S. lacks the authority to engage in wars unrelated to its own defense or that of its allies. Security Council action might lift that legal restraint. But once the Security Council has acted, Congress must still authorize the military action by formal voting, not by mere "consultation" with the president.

    The U.S. stayed out of the League of Nations after World War I in part because critics argued that it transferred the power to send the U.S. to war from Congress to an international body. Critics of U.S. participation in the United Nations after World War II similarly argued that the result would be presidential wars authorized by the U.N. but not by Congress.
    By taking part in a war unrelated to American defense on the basis of a U.N. Security Council resolution, without asking the House and the Senate for a joint resolution as the basis of his authority, President Obama has validated the fears of the critics that U.S. participation in the United Nations would informally amend the Constitution, by transferring authority to initiate all kinds of wars from Congress to the president. The argument that Congress, merely by funding the military, approves of wars initiated without congressional authorization, cannot be taken seriously.
    This is not the first unconstitutional war in American history. Truman’s Korean war and Clinton’s Kosovo war and his invasion of Haiti were all waged without congressional authorization (the Vietnam War was authorized by the Southeast Asia Resolution or “Gulf of Tonkin” Resolution). In contrast, Ronald Reagan obtained a congressional joint resolution authorizing his brief intervention in Lebanon (September 29, 1983), George Herbert Walker won a congressional joint resolution in favor of the Gulf War on January 12, 1991, while his son George W. Bush similarly obtained congressional authorization for the Afghan War (September 14, 2001) and the Iraq War (October 16, 2002). Unconstitutional wars waged without authorization by Congress and justified in the name of this or that international diplomatic body -- the UN, the Organization of American States, or in the case of the Libyan war the Arab League -- seem to be a specialty of "internationalist" Democratic presidents like Truman, Clinton and Obama.

    In the case of the Libyan war, the presidential power grab is even more blatant, because weak, poor countries on the Security Council have acted as ventriloquists’ puppets for the U.S., Britain and France.
    When the U.N. was being designed during World War II, Franklin Roosevelt initially wanted membership in the Security Council to be limited to three or four great powers, like the U.S., Britain, the Soviet Union and nationalist China. Unfortunately, in its final form, the authority of the great powers in the Security Council was diluted by rotating membership for various lesser powers. In addition to the five permanent members of the Security Council -- the U.S., Britain, France, Russia and China -- there are, at any given time, ten temporary members. Only a permanent member can veto a U.N. Security Council resolution, but the temporary members are permitted to vote as equals of the permanent members.
    Why this matters is evident from the pattern of the U.N. Security Council vote that authorized the no-fly zones in Libya. At present the U.N. Security Council is made up of the five permanent members plus ten other countries: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Colombia, Germany, India, Gabon, Lebanon, Nigeria, Portugal, South Africa.

    Of the members of the Security Council other than the permanent five, only Germany and possibly India and Brazil can be described as actual or potential great powers. Several of today’s temporary U.N. Security Council members are hardly countries at all. Lebanon’s government controls only part of its territory. Gabon is a statelet with a mere 1.6 million people, smaller than many American cities.

    In the vote to authorize war against Libya, the U.S., Britain and France were joined by Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colombia, Gabon, Lebanon, Nigeria, Portugal and South Africa. Abstaining from the vote were five countries: Brazil, Russia, India, China and Germany.

    What do the five countries that registered their opposition to the Libyan war have in common? They make up most of the great powers of the early twenty-first century. A few years back, Goldman Sachs identified the so-called "BRIC’s" -- Brazil, Russia, India and China -- as the most important emerging countries in the world. The opponents of the Libyan war on the Security Council are the BRIC’s plus Germany, the most populous and richest country in Europe.
    Including the United States, the Security Council nations that voted for the no-fly zone resolution have a combined population of a little more than 700 million people and a combined GDP, in terms of purchasing power parity, of roughly $20 trillion. The Security Council countries that showed their disapproval of the Libyan war by abstaining from the vote have a combined population of about 3 billion people and a GDP of around $21 trillion.

    If the U.S. is factored out, the disproportion between the pro-war and anti-war camps on the Security Council is even more striking. The countries that abstained from the vote account for more than 40 percent of the human race. The countries that joined the U.S. in voting to authorize attacks on Libya, including Britain and France, have a combined population that adds up to a little more than 5 percent of the human race.
    The truth is that the U.S. is joined in its war on Libya by only two second-rank great powers, Britain and France, which between them carved up North Africa and the Middle East a century ago, slaughtering and torturing many Arabs in the process. Every other major power on earth (with the exception of Japan, which is not on the Council and has been quiet) opposed the Anglo-French-American attack in North Africa, registering that opposition by abstentions rather than "no" votes in the Security Council.

    The U.S., along with Britain and France, won the Security Council vote in the face of opposition from China, Russia, Germany, India and Brazil only by rounding up the votes of various minor countries, including Gabon and Lebanon and Colombia and Portugal. If the U.S. promised favors to these weak nations in return for pro-war votes, it would not be the first time in the history of American diplomacy. In any event, the claim that the international community supports the war cannot be sustained, in the face of the opposition of the BRIC’s plus Germany.

    And what of the alleged moral authority provided by the Arab League? A week after calling on the UN to impose a no-fly zone on Libya, the Arab League reversed its position, once western bombs began to rain down on an Arab country. Explaining the reversal, Amr Mussa, the secretary general of the Arab League, said: "What has happened in Libya differs from the goal of imposing a no-fly zone and what we want is the protection of civilians and not bombing other civilians."
    In his press conference last Friday, President Obama told the American people: "Yesterday, in response to a call for action by the Libyan people and the Arab League, the U.N. Security Council passed a strong resolution that demands an end to the violence against citizens." It is bad enough that the President thinks that a declaration of war by Congress is not necessary, as long as the war is blessed by Security Council members like Colombia and Gabon, as well as by "the Libyan people" and by the collection of kleptocrats and thugs that make up the Arab League. But when the Arab League withdraws its support as soon as the war begins -- well, that’s just embarrassing.
    i wonder who will spin this best??
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    But when the Arab League withdraws its support as soon as the war begins -- well, that’s just embarrassing.
    Made that point in another thread. Why are the UK and America getting involved? Been out-manouvered all the way, dithered and dallied -bullied into entering a fight that doesn't concern us(apart from protecting business interests). At least when we invaded Iraq we had a reason, however flimsy it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billynomates View Post
    Why are the UK and America getting involved?
    I would like to think because we are a civilized nation that care for the welfare and safety of civilians anywhere in the world. You could ask the same of Red Nose Day or any country that we give aid to. Why should we? Because we are good human beings Then I thought nah it's all down to the oil.

    Actually I think David Cameron wanted to get involved as a kick in the teeth to Tony Blair who is friends with Gadaffi

    Quote Originally Posted by billynomates View Post
    At least when we invaded Iraq we had a reason, however flimsy it was.
    I was opposed to the war in Iraq purely because I think the UK and US stormed in without a second thought. I find it strange that people were for the Iraqi war (when no UN resolution was given and possibly an illegal war) yet they give it this time and you are opposed to it.

    I'm not opposed to a no fly zone. I would like to think that if Cameron was to start killing us, that other countries would come to our aid. Civilians in Libya have welcomed the no fly zone but have asked for no ground troops. I hope our countries respect this.

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    Doug's right it is unconstitutional, so its illegal under US Law. And Kazza is wrong as usual as it is also illegal under article 2.7 of the United Nations Charter which clearly states it is ilegal for nations to interfere in the internal affairs of another Soverign state.

    Also worth noting is the admission that Mi6 and the SAS have been operating and funding the admitted Al Qaeda rebels, well of course they have... its because the West run Al Qaeda.. the West invented Al Qaeda FFS they form part of Western black ops.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...same-side.html

    Of course all this was predicted by me in the crystal ball thread.

    Oh and another thing of course it doesnt make sense to you billy, thats because you are being lied to about the situation. Lies never make sense, has the penny not dropped yet??
    Last edited by Ezzz; Today at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motherfunky View Post
    And Kazza is wrong as usual as it is also illegal under article 2.7 of the United Nations Charter which clearly states it is ilegal for nations to interfere in the internal affairs of another Soverign state.
    Seriously, you are becoming boring. There are always loop holes.
    Last edited by kazza1985; 03-22-2011 at 04:01 AM.

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    Thats not a loop hole, its the UN charter which is being violated, as is the US Constitution. There's little difference between the Iraq war and this one, they both started with no fly zones which means bombing the fuck out of the country and if need be will end the same way with so called boots on the ground.

    ps youve always been boring
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherfunky View Post
    Thats not a loop hole, its the UN charter which is being violated, as is the US Constitution. There's little difference between the Iraq war and this one, they both started with no fly zones which means bombing the fuck out of the country and if need be will end the same way with so called boots on the ground.
    There is a huge difference. Iraq had a no fly zone with NO UN approval. If you go to war without the back of the UN, you take a huge risk. Civilians in Libya have human rights and force is being used for humanitarian intervention and a responsibility to protect.


    Quote Originally Posted by motherfunky View Post
    ps youve always been boring
    You couldn't be more wrong sir.
    Last edited by kazza1985; 03-22-2011 at 04:17 AM.

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    Anyone who thinks a "no fly zone" is going to do anything towards keeping Ghadaffi and his forces from killing the rebels is being naive.

    But aside from that, how can we take sides in civil wars in other countries? Just who are these rebels? Will they be better for Libya? Will they be better for us? We have no idea what we are getting into, and our President isn't even here to tell us what his plan is, probably because he has none. His defense secretary made it pretty clear a week ago that he was not interested in imposing a no fly zone, and I suspect he will resign here real soon.

    We can't just support rebels in countries where we don't care for the current government, it isn't right. There are humanitarian issues in dozens of countries where we could use the same logic for military action that is being applied here. Where do we draw the line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by curtinsea View Post
    Anyone who thinks a "no fly zone" is going to do anything towards keeping Ghadaffi and his forces from killing the rebels is being naive.
    Wasn't aware anyone had said anything about no fly zones actually having any effect. It is likely it won't and ground troops will go in

    Quote Originally Posted by curtinsea View Post
    But aside from that, how can we take sides in civil wars in other countries? Just who are these rebels? Will they be better for Libya? Will they be better for us? We have no idea what we are getting into, and our President isn't even here to tell us what his plan is, probably because he has none. His defense secretary made it pretty clear a week ago that he was not interested in imposing a no fly zone, and I suspect he will resign here real soon.

    We can't just support rebels in countries where we don't care for the current government, it isn't right. There are humanitarian issues in dozens of countries where we could use the same logic for military action that is being applied here. Where do we draw the line?
    Don't remember anyone agreeing to it being right either. Gadaffi's second eldest son was right in that much of the blame lies with a biased media that have brought this issue to the forefront so blame them for the lack of action being taken against other countries. Also the fact that those countries probably don't have oil.
    Last edited by kazza1985; 03-22-2011 at 07:49 AM.

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