Originally Posted by
Niccivan
Your response to me was in red.... and now mine will be underneath you in... another color.
If there's one thing I've learned in online poker, you can't play with scared money.
...This isn't about playing scared money. I triy to advise players from playing scared money, but this is a bit different than playing scared. It's more of, is this +EV or -EV in the long run?
Well, unfortunately, when you play online, most players out there aren't thinking this way. If they aren't thinking it, I need to change my game. Let's face it, those playing $5-$10 SNG's aren't pro's, and they don't think like them. They call all-in's with K4os and they win. This encourages them to keep playing. Sure, stats say they should lose in the long run. I'm still waiting for that long run to catch up. Until then, I have to change my game to adapt to the level of play in which I am playing against. Otherwise I don't stand a chance.... at least from what I've seen. Hell, even in our own LP games, I can play "by the book" every single time, and you won't find me at the final table but a handful of times. The key here is adapting to your environment. This was a $5 SNG. Do you really assume every time some raises they have a monster? I see people raise UTG with A4. Gimme a break....
...There are plenty of $5-$10 SNG grinders out there who do well when they play. And there are a lot of bad players out there who play really badly. They may win a few times, but they lose a lot more (unless they're really running hot). I want players to shove with K4 and win a few times. This is where the provide comes. A bad player is going to lose more in the long run vs a good player. Are they going to lose all the time? No, not at all. Just a lot a good player will not win all the time. How many sample sizes do you have against a particular bad player? Just because they might beat you a few times doesn't mean they aren't losing more times somewhere else. That's just how the game goes for most players, they'll lose a few times here and then pick up a few wins there. Not saying you do this, because I dont know, but don't base your results on how many bad beats you've had. You could lose 4 SNGs in a row to brutal beats, then win one, and still profit. Isn't that what the goal of poker is? Who cares how many losses you've taken if you still profit. All it really does is make a graph look swingy...
...You also mention adjusting to your environment. And I agree 100%. I also mentioned that every decision I make depends on a number of factors. I never said to play 'by-the-book' or anything. Every decision depends. Do I assume that every raise in EP at a $5 SNG is a monster. No, I don't. Nor do I think every raise is with trash. I'm only working of the info OP gave, which is very basic. Nothing on villain, caller, the table that might alter my decision. So, given the information posted, I have to try and respond with the most +EV way to continue that I see fit. It may be different for everyone, but if I was in OP's shoes, thats who I would have proceeded.
The bet was big, but with a caller I feel better about my mid pair than I did without the caller. I can hope that the raise was two over cards... or even a monster PP. Now, perhaps the caller also has 2 over cards.... and their chances or catching are less.
...I really don't follow this. Let say raiser has big PP and caller has KQs, how does this improve your odds of winning? Even if raiser has AK and caller has 10J, you're still an underdog to win. At least if it was just the raiser with AK vs 77, you're at a coin-flip. If anything, with a caller before you, it puts you in a predicament if OR c-bets any scary board.
Early in a tournament is a great time to get ahead for a small amount. The amount placed out there in the grand scheme of things wasn't that much for the potential you could have to possibly get ahead. Sometimes, in a small staked game online, you have to snag every chance you get to pull ahead. Whats the worse that could happen? I don't hit a 7, a few over cards hit, I fold. I've only lost a little bit. Had a better hand to me been dealt... say AQ, and I call... and an A hits... but my opponent who initially raised had AK. I could possibly lose a lot more. A relatively small call to gain a larger sum back. Not pot odds at all, but a chance to get ahead. If you miss, you can easily get those chips back since it's still early.
...Some things I agree on here. True, you could risk 10% of your stack and hope to win a lot, but given the odds/implied odds, the risk vs reward just isn't there to justify a call here. Again, this is all going back to responding to the OP with the most +EV line I see. You don't have to snag every chance you need to pull ahead, it's still early in the game and you have a healthy stack. What's the point of risking 10% of your stack with improper odds of winning while in a bad position just so you can 'get them back if you lose'?
At the same time, if this is the style of play for you and it works, then great. I am not trying to steer you away from how you play. I personally prefer a fold/raise style of play with calling a small percent of the time. Calling here is just too spewy and 3-betting this early doesn't accomplish much for me, so the best option is too fold.
Yeah, I'm thinking I lay this down most of the time. But sometimes I get a wild hair and have been known to play outside the box. Perhaps all the "rules" point to a lay down here, however, the rules have pretty much screwed me on every hand possible.
...I don't try and follow a set of rules when I play. Every decision I make depends on many factors when I play. I'm not saying to fold here 100% of the time, nor do am I saying that I am calling 100% of the time-and playing outside the box from time to time is good, IMO. However, since OP posted the question, I am assuming they want the best advice possible and I am going to try give them the best that I can. My advice may be different than others and that's fine. This is just how I approach the game and all I'm doing is giving OP options.
lol... this is exactly what I've been saying all along. As you can see by my initial thoughts in black, I didn't say I would necessarily call here on most occasions. I said many factors would help me in making that decision.
I am known as the suck out girl.... however, it's not me doing the sucking out.... it's me getting sucked out on. So, whatever these odds and rules are that say I should end up winning in the long run and they should be losing.... well I must play by a different standard cause I rarely win those hands.
...I feel a bit silly saying this, being a new member and all. But it just sounds to me like you're being result oriented. However, I am not saying you should change your game or anything. Play how you wish and if it works for you, that's great. And heck, maybe there is something in your style of play that I'm over-looking. However, I don't see how saying 'I'd play the most -EV way because every time I play the 'right' way, I lose.' helps the OP.
I didn't say I mostly play that way. I just said I rarely win the race when the odds are in my favor. Heck, we can all say that at some point in time in our games where it seems all we do is lose where stats indicate differently. My point was, follow your instincts. Let certain factors weigh in before you just automatically assume the best approach is to fold.
...Of course there is a point when all we do is lose. That's that monster called 'variance' and we all run into it from time to time. I know that a bad player is going to run into a lot more variance than a good player is. And I agree to weigh on certain factors before you make a decision. But in the OP, what factors where presented that helped your make your decision? Other than it's a $5 SNG, there are a lot of bad players at $5-$10 levels, and you've lot a number of races? I don't automatically assume the best approach is to fold, ever. However, with what I have to work with, I see folding in this particular situation to be the best option that i would follow. OP, you, and others may agree or disagree. Again, I am not trying to steer you away from your style of play because if it works for you, then go with it.
The funny thing is, I don't believe either one of us are 100% correct or incorrect in how we would approach the hand/this game. To each their own.
(Sorry)
Don't be.... isn't that the point of a discussion? To see the many sides of the prism that you normally wouldn't see?
We ALL play differently. We each have our strengths and weaknesses when it come to our game. To assume we should all have a cookie-cutter answer to these types of questions isn't realistic.
...I agree, there is no cookie cutter response here at all by me. All I responded with is the best action I see fit.
"For Those That Have Fought For It, Freedom Has A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know"
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its sooo nice to see this part of the forum active I'm soo happy I could just pee 
I either want to get my ass kicked and get out or double up and not have to grind for the next hour 
) 
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